Thoughts on Israel/Palistan
Do people think the Palestinians parachuted into Israel??
Sorry, but the Palestinians were there first. Ruled by the British in modern times, but there first.
Israel was recognized as a nation in 1947.. after many displaced Jews went to what was then Palestine. From a palestinian point of view, that was bad enough...
Israel then survived as a tiny country surrounded by enemies - until the six day war in 1967 when they captured Sinai, the Gaza strip, Jerusalem and a lot of territory. The simple truth is that they took this land by force and occupied it. Once having done that, they began to "settle" on it. Palestinians in these occupied places did not get what one would call preferential treatment. They lashed out at the Israeli occupiers, the occupiers take action in defense of security and the cycle began and kept growing until we have the situation we are in now.
As our own history shows, when you take someone's land, occupy it, and settle it, they kind of get pissed off. We viewed the American Indians as subuman, and as "terrorists" - they didn't fight the way we thought people should fight....
So if you are Japan, all your ships are sunk or can't fight for lack of oil, you attack the American fleet with kamikazes. If you are a palestinian, and the other side has tanks, fighters, helicopter gunships, etc. you strap some plastic explosive to your body and kill some Israelis. If they happen to be civilians and children, all the better since that hurts the other side more...
For a huge number of reasons, the U.S. has supported Israel to the nth degree. During the Yom Kippur war in 1973, U.S. A-4 aircraft were flown right off carrier decks to Israel to replace combat losses.
This does not sit well with others in the middle east. Whether it was bought or given, the rocket that just blew up the building down the street says "Made in USA"
If you are a piece of sh*t like Bin Laden, it is not big jump to take your fear and resentment of Israel, mix it up with the same attitude toward the US, mix in some religion and an image of the US as a godless infidel nation bent on oppressing the rest of the world, and the next thing you know, you got people working for you who will drive airliners into buildings.
Recently a Saudi prince, in a groundbreaking move for the Arab world, actually put forth a peace plan that allows the existence of Israel, although in its pre-1967 state. This was a major development.
And also a no-risk plan. Because it just will not happen. Arafat either does not have control over the Palestnians or will not exercise it and Sharon is a rabid dog 50 percent of the time.
IMHO opinion both sides have valid positions, but there will be no peace in the middle east until the Palestinians get their own people under control and the US government gets tough with Israel.
Sorry, but the Palestinians were there first. Ruled by the British in modern times, but there first.
Israel was recognized as a nation in 1947.. after many displaced Jews went to what was then Palestine. From a palestinian point of view, that was bad enough...
Israel then survived as a tiny country surrounded by enemies - until the six day war in 1967 when they captured Sinai, the Gaza strip, Jerusalem and a lot of territory. The simple truth is that they took this land by force and occupied it. Once having done that, they began to "settle" on it. Palestinians in these occupied places did not get what one would call preferential treatment. They lashed out at the Israeli occupiers, the occupiers take action in defense of security and the cycle began and kept growing until we have the situation we are in now.
As our own history shows, when you take someone's land, occupy it, and settle it, they kind of get pissed off. We viewed the American Indians as subuman, and as "terrorists" - they didn't fight the way we thought people should fight....
So if you are Japan, all your ships are sunk or can't fight for lack of oil, you attack the American fleet with kamikazes. If you are a palestinian, and the other side has tanks, fighters, helicopter gunships, etc. you strap some plastic explosive to your body and kill some Israelis. If they happen to be civilians and children, all the better since that hurts the other side more...
For a huge number of reasons, the U.S. has supported Israel to the nth degree. During the Yom Kippur war in 1973, U.S. A-4 aircraft were flown right off carrier decks to Israel to replace combat losses.
This does not sit well with others in the middle east. Whether it was bought or given, the rocket that just blew up the building down the street says "Made in USA"
If you are a piece of sh*t like Bin Laden, it is not big jump to take your fear and resentment of Israel, mix it up with the same attitude toward the US, mix in some religion and an image of the US as a godless infidel nation bent on oppressing the rest of the world, and the next thing you know, you got people working for you who will drive airliners into buildings.
Recently a Saudi prince, in a groundbreaking move for the Arab world, actually put forth a peace plan that allows the existence of Israel, although in its pre-1967 state. This was a major development.
And also a no-risk plan. Because it just will not happen. Arafat either does not have control over the Palestnians or will not exercise it and Sharon is a rabid dog 50 percent of the time.
IMHO opinion both sides have valid positions, but there will be no peace in the middle east until the Palestinians get their own people under control and the US government gets tough with Israel.
Well, this isn't popular at all but IMSHO the US government has broken so many treaties we ( as the people who elected them ) should be strung up. I'm not talking about signing and breaking hundreds of contracts with american indians as we killed them and took their land ( War again: and IMSHO if you gain something by war and the war ends then those who lost LOST. They can go to war to take it back, but whining about it ... they LOST! If they don't have strong friends they should remain the losers. .. different theme than this thread thoThe supposed reasoning for the sept. 11 terrorists attacks were because we support Israel and have military bases on "Holy land". Right?
) but about dozens or hundreds done since then. And what right do we have to tell other countries they have to behave like us? They are sovereign nations, with their own populations. If the US were not so well connected that the president stubing his toe was nationwide 2 minutes later I often wonder if a country who wants us destroyed ( SPECTRE ? ) couldn't encite riots and war here? What percentage of the population in the US is amongst the 'disenfranchised'? And is that percentage growing as the gap between the rich and poor widens?
darn. It happened again.
Why aren't any of you guys local so we can bullpoop over beers in person? :jester :chug
I agree with those 'moderate' or 'friendly' arab people I saw interviewed in the weeks after 911 who say the US has done wrong to other nations or people just to get whatever it was the US wanted. That's politics. That''s life, and war and trade agreements.. but if I were brought up in a poor country ( like parts of the US SouthEast used to/maybe still are ) I'd have a lot of resentment toward anybody telling me i'm an idiot, I should let Uncle Sam come in and make things better. We wouldn't do it here in our own states/counties: most would file LawSuits against the feds, bribe politicians to block whatever it was ( Spent Nuke Storage? ) and so on. What the US often wants other nations to do is worse: change your ways or we will bomb you.
Why do people in the US wonder why some ( and I say S O M E people around the world ) hate us?
The simple truth is that they took this land by force and occupied it
Yes, but remember the facts that happened. Israel was surrounded by troops, tanks etc. in a sort of blockade and their intentions were clear. So instead of waiting for them to attack, Israel attacked first. In the process of winning Israel did take some land for whatever reasons. Ok, They want that land back now. But then why were they there in the first place surrounding and threatening Israel in 1967?
I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't know the reasons.
As for the Indians, I agree a milion percent we screwed them over bigtime. But what does that have to do with this? You're not saying we're the same now as then are you?
Why aren't any of you guys local so we can bullpoop over beers in person?
hehe, I hear ya.
But what is "bullpoop"?
And what right do other countries have to tell us how to behave? They love to do that you know. What right do any other country in the world has to tell any other country how to behave? All are sovereign nations, with their own populations.Originally posted by bluewhale
And what right do we have to tell other countries they have to behave like us? They are sovereign nations, with their own populations. If the US were not so well connected that the president stubing his toe was nationwide 2 minutes later I often wonder if a country who wants us destroyed ( SPECTRE ? ) couldn't encite riots and war here? What percentage of the population in the US is amongst the 'disenfranchised'? And is that percentage growing as the gap between the rich and poor widens?
So yes bluewhale, no one should criticize the Israel for dealing with the Palestinians as they see fit.
The US is the only country in history to have done anything to get what it wanted. Lord, Allah or deity of choice knows every other country in the world has been angelic and have no self-interests.I agree with those 'moderate' or 'friendly' arab people I saw interviewed in the weeks after 911 who say the US has done wrong to other nations or people just to get whatever it was the US wanted. That's politics. That''s life, and war and trade agreements.. but if I were brought up in a poor country ( like parts of the US SouthEast used to/maybe still are ) I'd have a lot of resentment toward anybody telling me i'm an idiot, I should let Uncle Sam come in and make things better. We wouldn't do it here in our own states/counties: most would file LawSuits against the feds, bribe politicians to block whatever it was ( Spent Nuke Storage? ) and so on. What the US often wants other nations to do is worse: change your ways or we will bomb you.
But...but...bluewhale not helping out other countries would show we don't care about the world.
So its either be bashed for isolationist or be bashed for being the arrogant American thinks they know whats best for world.Its wrong for people to feel resentment towards those who call Westerners infidels and who want to change your ways or they will bomb you.
Why do some people around the world always have blame America first? Because its the easiest target to scapegoat.Why do people in the US wonder why some ( and I say S O M E people around the world ) hate us?
The only point I was trying to make is that the Palestinians were there first. Either because they can't or they won't, the Palestinians have not been assimilated into Israel, politically or economically or socially.
They consider themselves to be occupied by a foreign invader and view what they do as entirely just.
Insofar as the 67 war is concerned, Israel was surrounded by a hostile egypt and a hostile Syria. Egypt was armed to the teeth with Soviet weapons and the Syrians were too. Israel started the war and pre-empted what they felt was an immediate threat from these countries. They took the territory, in their view, to survive and lessen the chance of being totally overrun. Even with the extra space, they were seriously threatened when invaded in 73.
The trouble with conquering is that you then have to occupy and govern. If your intent is not to give the territory back, you either assimilate the people you have conquered or you have either oppress them or wipe them out.
The Israelis didn't choose to give the land back. They chose to consider the land as land to be settled by their own people. What to do with the Palestinians was not much of a consideration.
I have always respected the Israelis for their guts and skill. At the same time, they consider themselves to have a god-given right to do whatever they want to anybody. They take aid from us and spy on us at the same time. Their militant leaders, like Sharon, deliberately provoke the Palestinians so they can justify more aggression when the Palestinians react.
Don't you think that the though of the US recognizing a Palestinian state scares Sharon to death? What better way to prevent that than jerk the Palestinians around a bit, have more terrorist attacks and let the Americans think that all Palestinians are terrorist animals.
I don't favor either side here. Both are f*cked up. I am disturbed by the cycle of violence because it helps support anti-U.S. sentiments and, because we end up being forced to pick a side, puts us in a place where we can't have the kind of dialogue and relationship with the Arab world that would leave terrorists isolated and without support....
They consider themselves to be occupied by a foreign invader and view what they do as entirely just.
Insofar as the 67 war is concerned, Israel was surrounded by a hostile egypt and a hostile Syria. Egypt was armed to the teeth with Soviet weapons and the Syrians were too. Israel started the war and pre-empted what they felt was an immediate threat from these countries. They took the territory, in their view, to survive and lessen the chance of being totally overrun. Even with the extra space, they were seriously threatened when invaded in 73.
The trouble with conquering is that you then have to occupy and govern. If your intent is not to give the territory back, you either assimilate the people you have conquered or you have either oppress them or wipe them out.
The Israelis didn't choose to give the land back. They chose to consider the land as land to be settled by their own people. What to do with the Palestinians was not much of a consideration.
I have always respected the Israelis for their guts and skill. At the same time, they consider themselves to have a god-given right to do whatever they want to anybody. They take aid from us and spy on us at the same time. Their militant leaders, like Sharon, deliberately provoke the Palestinians so they can justify more aggression when the Palestinians react.
Don't you think that the though of the US recognizing a Palestinian state scares Sharon to death? What better way to prevent that than jerk the Palestinians around a bit, have more terrorist attacks and let the Americans think that all Palestinians are terrorist animals.
I don't favor either side here. Both are f*cked up. I am disturbed by the cycle of violence because it helps support anti-U.S. sentiments and, because we end up being forced to pick a side, puts us in a place where we can't have the kind of dialogue and relationship with the Arab world that would leave terrorists isolated and without support....
Yes. sort of.As for the Indians, I agree a milion percent we screwed them over bigtime. But what does that have to do with this? You're not saying we're the same now as then are you?
I hate using the words, but in my mind I repeatedly come up with a phrase for what the US has done forever, especially in the past few years ...called
"white mans burden"
We Americans, being god fearing white folk, know better than whomever we are killing. Either they accept our ways or die. It doesn't matter if our 'way' is based on religion, politics, money, trade or whatever at that point in time. They accept or die.
As far as I can see this fine day in late march 2002 this practice continues.
:+hehe, I hear ya. But what is "bullpoop"?
:jedi 
cursing is prohibited on this @$#^%!@#$ board Your opening statement says a lot. What right do those in other countries have to criticize the US? Right? None. And if they do do I care? If the bring up a good point ( and I have too actually T H I N K about their point, not dismiss it as dribble from a butt-XXXX country I don't care about like Germany or France or Prussia ) then I think for at least a beers worth of time about their point. I usually won't accept it, but I listen. Point is WE ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. That's human nature. If anybody thinks otherwise they are a psychopath. Next step is considering some other buttheads point of view. it gets pretty mushy from there, but...Why do some people around the world always have blame America first? Because its the easiest target to scapegoat.
We have more wealth per capita than anyone. Or almost anyone. In the US if you are willing to work, even if you are not a brain surgeon you can feed your familiy, hope for better for you children.. get them shots and health care, etc.
Why would you care what ANYBODY says about us when thinking about this? Some punk kid comes up and yells things at you when you are in line with your family for a movie... you're going to chase him/her down a dark alley to get beaten up??
Living there gives one no rights. My guess is 'look at every square inch of the Earth'. Those holding it did not originally.. War was a fact of life until maybe 50-60 years ago.. still is for much of the world but not for us..The Israelis didn't choose to give the land back. They chose to consider the land as land to be settled by their own people. What to do with the Palestinians was not much of a consideration
If fighting a war is 'neccessary', and our sons and daughters go off and die or are maimed in it.. then whatever they fought for was important. Thus my thought b4 'if you win it in war you won it'... The palesteniens never fought their war. Israel did so in a way to be recognized by the US at least, and thus have country.
If you want to form a country out of someone else's property you have to have a war, or a lot of bribes.
Why do the palesteniens 'deserve' a country? There is no reason I can see other than they want it.
We Americans, being god fearing white folk, know better than whomever we are killing. Either they accept our ways or die. It doesn't matter if our 'way' is based on religion, politics, money, trade or whatever at that point in time. They accept or die.
Friend, I think you're waaaaay out in outer space with that remark. What do you mean by "we"?
Geeezus! Do not include me with remarks like that, please. That's saying we kill anyone who disagrees or doesn't accept our ways and man, what have you been smokin'? :; No, Americans do not feel that way at all. Obviously some in the middle east do though. Yes sometimes we act like Wyatt Earp but no we do not kill those who disagree or who don't think like us. If that were the case the world would have been no more a long time ago.
)* Meanwhile, back at the ranch.......
There's obviously fault on both sides but I still think more on the palistan side. But who's side should we be on. One one hand Israel killed many Americans just because they thought they new the facts which Israel considered embarrassing (and possibly illegal) from that 1967 war, and then sold our secrets to russia which cost the lives of several American CIA operatives there. Then we have Palistan, openly supporting terrorism.
Shit, let's just nukem all! j/k of course. (I think)
More like white man guilt complex™ and sorry friend you have subscribed to that bs.Originally posted by bluewhale
Yes. sort of.
I hate using the words, but in my mind I repeatedly come up with a phrase for what the US has done forever, especially in the past few years ...called
"white mans burden"
We Americans, being god fearing white folk, know better than whomever we are killing. Either they accept our ways or die. It doesn't matter if our 'way' is based on religion, politics, money, trade or whatever at that point in time. They accept or die.
As far as I can see this fine day in late march 2002 this practice continues.
I'm sure my black friend will be thrilled he is a white guy now. And yes he agrees with what must be done.
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Insane Morphius
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TruckStuff
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<b>FACT:</b> US support of Isreal is deeply rooted in the FALSE Judeo-Christian view that the geopolitical state of Isreal created in 1947 is some how the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. However, any person who studies the Bible in its entirety quickly realizes that there is nothing Biblical about Isreal today.
<b>FACT:</b> Islam is NOT the religion of peace that the American media would like you to believe it is. The fact of the matter is that the Qoran and other Islamic holy texts are littered with commands by Mohammed to "kill the infadels", referring to Jews and Christians alike. There IS justification in the Qoran for terrorists acts like we have seen recntly against Jews and Christians.
<b>FACT:</b> Many Muslims in this country that claim Islam is a peaceful religion have been deeply secularized by Western culture and are viewed as the "liberal" ones by their brothers in the Middle East. The truth is that regimes like the Taliban actaully have their roots in the conservative branches of Islam, despite what the American media would have you believe.
<b>OPINION:</b> Both sides are wrong. American support of Isreal is based on horrendous misinterpretations of the Bible and people who get all their news from places like CNN (no offense intended to anyone reading this). Terrorists attacks by Muslims ARE justified by the Qoran and other Islamic texts and infact are encouraged. Neither side is justified in ANY of their actions, and the US is just as much to blame for this as anyone else.
<--- Zips up his flame suit.
<b>FACT:</b> Islam is NOT the religion of peace that the American media would like you to believe it is. The fact of the matter is that the Qoran and other Islamic holy texts are littered with commands by Mohammed to "kill the infadels", referring to Jews and Christians alike. There IS justification in the Qoran for terrorists acts like we have seen recntly against Jews and Christians.
<b>FACT:</b> Many Muslims in this country that claim Islam is a peaceful religion have been deeply secularized by Western culture and are viewed as the "liberal" ones by their brothers in the Middle East. The truth is that regimes like the Taliban actaully have their roots in the conservative branches of Islam, despite what the American media would have you believe.
<b>OPINION:</b> Both sides are wrong. American support of Isreal is based on horrendous misinterpretations of the Bible and people who get all their news from places like CNN (no offense intended to anyone reading this). Terrorists attacks by Muslims ARE justified by the Qoran and other Islamic texts and infact are encouraged. Neither side is justified in ANY of their actions, and the US is just as much to blame for this as anyone else.
<--- Zips up his flame suit.
Sorry if I included you in that. We means the United States of America. We means the actions taken by the US anywhere, anytime. I don't feel comfortable saying ' it was the president, it was congress' who broke that treaty with you, who bombed you, whatever. I agree with 80-90% of US foregin policy for the past 30 years but ... we DO kill those who do not agree with us. Rarely with Troops, probably often with cloak and dagger operations ( like most other countries? ) but always by selling weapons or training people like binladden. How can I say 'not my fault' when the US Government does these things, and I supposedly have a say in choosing who runs the US?Friend, I think you're waaaaay out in outer space with that remark. What do you mean by "we"? Geeezus! Do not include me with remarks like that, please. That's saying we kill anyone who disagrees or doesn't accept our ways and man, what have you been smokin'?
Umm.. I was using the metaphor because that syndrome is S T U P I D. That was my short winded point (More like white man guilt complex™ and sorry friend you have subscribed to that bs
) : That is the only reason I have been given for why we try again and again to change other countries to our style of life. ( uh oh- the thought just occured that MAYBE we do this at the behest of corporate america, who wants new markets to sell stuff in. I keep hearing about companies looking at China and drooling over the possibilities there... ?? ) Nobody uses 'white mans burden' any more: it was coined when missionaries were roaming the plains of the west, converting or killing the various Indian tribes. It's like being a bigot: anyone can be one- black, white, whatever.
Sometimes you leave the suit off: helps with the tan<--- Zips up his flame suit.
<g>
BTW: I found this in a corner of a room I don't use last week. It's from my time in the Army in Korea, late 70's when Khomeni was causing so much trouble. Sorry it's so fuzzy: the plate reads 'the Great American Dream'
The fact of the matter is that the Qoran and other Islamic holy texts are littered with commands by Mohammed to "kill the infadels", referring to Jews and Christians alike. There IS justification in the Qoran for terrorists acts like we have seen recntly against Jews and Christians.
You and bluewhale been smoking dope together? "Justification for killing infidels" is enough to disband any total crap religion like that and then you say it's justified again't Jews and Christians. Those that think like that can go to HELL! Of course their hell is probably something different like being head first in 5 foot high manure.
Those so called "facts" of yours is pulled from who's ass? Geez, get real.
And bluewhale, I give up trying to figure you out.
But you're wrong.-
TruckStuff
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I don't quite understand your point. The grammar is not very good (please don't take offense, we all make typos"Justification for killing infidels" is enough to disband any total crap religion like that and then you say it's justified again't Jews and Christians. Those that think like that can go to HELL! Of course their hell is probably something different like being head first in 5 foot high manure.
Those so called "facts" of yours is pulled from who's ass? Geez, get real.
). But I gather that you disagree with my assertion that Islam proclaims the death of those opposed to it. Its out of the Qoran, not my ass. I'll pull my reference notes and post the exact verse references. I'm sorry if you don't believe me or if you don't want to believe me, but you are wrong here.Islam has always held that it is superior to Judaism and Christianity. There is a phrase in Islam that goes something like "Judaism is elementary school, Chrisitanity is like high school, and Islam is like college" referring to the degrees of superiority over the others. The foundations of Islam have always been in violence and driving out Jewish and Christian "infadels" of the entire world, not just Islamic holy lands. Mohammed himself began to conduct raids on Jewish and Christian trade caravans AFTER he became a "prophet". This was mainly due to the fact that he resettled his followers into a dessert that was incapable of supporting people, but it also had to do with ridding the world Jews and Christians.
This is also supported by history itself. If you look at history, whenever you see revivals in the Christian faith (the Reformation, the Great Awakening, etc.) people make a strong move back towards the Bible and Biblcal ways of acting. These periods are also accompanied by periods of great discovery and advances in science and general knowledge. But if you look at Islamic history and movements by Muslims "back to the roots" of Islam, they are ALWAYS accompanied by violence, murder, and plunder. As I said, the foundations of the Taliban are easily traced to the "fundamenatals" of the Qoran.
Tomorrow is Easter so I will be busy with family, etc. all day. I will pull out my notes tomorrow evening and post the exact passages from the Qoran that explicitly state that Jews and Christians are to be killed. Hopefully, I will have them up tomorrow night or Monday morning.
Ok, then I guess I owe you an apology TruckStuff.
It's just real hard to believe any religion could be that "Despicable".
Then again they have been calling the killing of innocent Americans a "holy war' or jhalkid or whever their name is for that.
If that is their thinking then they should be wiped from the earth for good. And good damned riddance!
I think all religions feel that way, they "know" their religion is by far the best. Just ask the mormons, the baptists, cathlics, etc..
I'm sorry for my comments directed to you. Thank you for pointing out how worse that religion really is. I knew it was bad but that thinking is just like terrorists. No wonder eh.
It's just real hard to believe any religion could be that "Despicable".
Then again they have been calling the killing of innocent Americans a "holy war' or jhalkid or whever their name is for that.
If that is their thinking then they should be wiped from the earth for good. And good damned riddance!
The foundations of Islam have always been in violence
Islam has always held that it is superior to Judaism and Christianity.
I think all religions feel that way, they "know" their religion is by far the best. Just ask the mormons, the baptists, cathlics, etc..
But if you look at Islamic history and movements by Muslims "back to the roots" of Islam, they are ALWAYS accompanied by violence, murder, and plunder.
I'm sorry for my comments directed to you. Thank you for pointing out how worse that religion really is. I knew it was bad but that thinking is just like terrorists. No wonder eh.