Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

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Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

Post by wvjohn »

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/11 ... crash.html

Undocumented as in ***not included in documentation, pilots manual/training, or mentioned to the FAA***

Oringinal article as in WSJ.

tl;dr Boeing introduced a stall avoidance system which automatically makes the plane nose down in certain situations, WHEN THE PLANE IS UNDER MANAUL CONTROL but didn't bother to tell the pilots or the FAA about it.
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

Post by FlyingPenguin »

I've watched all 14 seasons of Air Crash Investigation and this is, sadly, common. It's caused crashes before. Modern planes are like modern cars with all kinds of safety features that may not be documented. Usually it's not a problem, unless the plane is flying on the hairy edge, and the pilots aren't aware that a safety system may be fighting them for control.

I remember one crash that was caused because the pilots weren't aware that moving the wheel back and forth several times while on autopilot, automatically disengaged the autopilot silently on their plane (a feature that wasn't documented). This was a Russian Aeroflot plane, and against regulations a child was allowed to sit in the pilot's seat. By the time the pilots noticed something was wrong, the plane was in a high-G turn and neither pilot could get the plane under control in time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

Post by wvjohn »

This one hit runway lights at the end of the runway in Belfast on takeoff b/c the pilot had entered the wrong air temp and the software didn't double check it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... data-error
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

Post by FlyingPenguin »

Yeah, pilots have to enter a lot of things correctly before takeoff, and they're supposed to check each other but sometimes they get sloppy or they're in a hurry. The gross weight of the plane is an important one too, and a couple of crashes have been caused because of that.

I think it was a big mistake to eliminate the flight engineer on modern planes.

There was one plane that had to make an emergency landing on a drag strip built on an decommisioned runway because someone had miscalculated the amount of fuel that should have been added.
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any crash can be an accident - two start a pattern

Post by wvjohn »

good article from Financial Times

seriously Boeing, wtf are you doing with this stuff.



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https://www.ft.com/content/53b2142a-471 ... a37d002cd3

Grounding a global fleet: Boeing faces its greatest challenge
With its 737 Max model grounded, the manufacturer is under intense pressure to find out what went wrong
© FT montage / New York Times/Redux/Eyevine.
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Sylvia Pfeifer in London, Patti Waldmeir in Chicago, Kiran Stacey in Washington and Lucy Hornby in Beijing YESTERDAY Print this page158
The Boeing 737 Max was born out of a threat posed by its European arch-rival. On a sweltering summer’s day at Dallas Fort Worth airport in 2011, Tom Horton, the then president of American Airlines, stunned the industry when he announced Airbus had won part of a multibillion-dollar contract to supply a replacement for the carrier’s short-haul fleet.

It was the first contract the European manufacturer had won from American for its narrowbody fleet and it was to supply its A320neo, a new variant of the plane with a more economical engine.

To stay in the race Boeing had to scramble. It had originally planned an all new plane, but instead changed tack to offer American a revamped version of its existing bestseller, the 737, which could be ready sooner — it launched in 2017 — and would, like the A320neo, have fuel-efficient engines to meet airlines’ demands for cost savings.

That decision is now at the centre of the biggest crisis in the aviation industry in a decade following last Sunday’s Ethiopian Airlines crash, which killed all 157 people on board. It came just five months after another Max 8, owned by Indonesia’s Lion Air, plunged into the sea, killing all 189 passengers and crew. Investigators in France are examining both black boxes from Sunday’s crash for clues as to the cause of the disaster.


US President Donald Trump with Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg on a tour in St Louis, Missouri on Thursday © AFP
In both incidents the aircraft crashed minutes after take-off, and in the Lion Air disaster some have pointed to a malfunctioning automated system, intended to keep the jet from stalling, as a possible cause.

Sunday’s tragedy triggered a global ban on the fleet and prompted a steep sell-off in Boeing’s shares — which have fallen almost 10 per cent since the crash, shaving $23bn off its value. The crisis could also cost the group billions in compensation payments to airlines with grounded planes, legal settlements with the families of victims, delivery delays and repair costs for existing aircraft.

Its reputation is also on the line — as is that of its US regulator, the Federal Aviation Administration, which in the hours after the crash issued a global notice of “continued airworthiness” for the plane, only to be left isolated after China and others grounded the aircraft.

Analysts and investors are struggling to calculate the financial cost to Boeing. The 737 Max has secured around 5,000 orders worth billions of dollars. The company has so far delivered 356 of them, including the two that crashed, and 29 of the larger Max 9 jets, according to data from consultancy Cirium.

Along with the groundings, Boeing has had to halt deliveries of the jets. And although it is impossible to know when the aircraft might return to the skies, most aviation industry insiders expect the grounding to last several weeks at least. Chris Higgins, aerospace analyst at Morningstar, estimates that airlines are losing $75,000 per day in revenue on each grounded Max, so if it were to last 90 days it could cost Boeing $2.5bn.

“This is the biggest test Boeing has faced in years,” says Richard Aboulafia, analyst at the Teal Group, “and certainly Dennis Muilenburg’s biggest as chief executive.”


Flowers in front of debris at the crash site in Ethiopia © Getty
On Tuesday, a day before he gave the executive order to ground Boeing’s planes in the US, President Donald Trump tweeted that “I don’t want Albert Einstein to be my pilot,” seemingly blaming automation for the crash.

The automated system is now expected to form one line of inquiry in the Ethiopian crash probe. But computers have helped pilots fly planes ever since Airbus launched the A320 family in the mid-1980s. Unlike Boeing’s original 737, which first flew in the late 1960s, the Airbus aircraft had computer-controlled “fly-by-wire” controls that replaced conventional manual flight controls with an electronic interface. Boeing followed about 10 years later with the 777 but has always retained a traditional control wheel.

“Automation is beneficial and will continue to be so but it should be in conjunction with the pilots,” says aviation analyst John Strickland of JLS Consulting. “Algorithms can’t work out every eventuality. We need to ensure pilots don’t become passive.”

Evidence shows that automation on the flight deck has made flying safer. In the case of the Lion Air crash in October, however, a new automated stall-prevention feature could have played a part in the accident, according to a preliminary report by Indonesian investigators.

Once the decision was taken to revamp the 737, Boeing engineers had to figure out a way to fit it with larger and more fuel-efficient engines. To achieve that they were placed further forward on the wing, changing the aircraft’s lift characteristics. This in turn led to the introduction of the manoeuvring characteristics augmentation system or MCAS, which pushes the nose of a climbing aircraft down if it calculates the plane is in danger of stalling.

The preliminary report found that the MCAS erroneously kicked in during the Lion Air flight take off due to a faulty sensor. The system can be disconnected but US pilot organisations have complained that Boeing failed to provide adequate information in their training.

“In the pilot world, information is key to survival,” Dennis Tajer, a 737 captain, told the Financial Times in November. “Information was not provided to us in our training [for the 737 Max] or our manuals regarding this difference in the systems.”

In the aftermath of the Lion Air crash Boeing had been working with the FAA on a software fix, which was scheduled to be rolled out by April. On Monday the US group said it will be available within “weeks”, and will involve using two sensors to feed data to the MCAS system, rather than one. Boeing says the fix will take about an hour per plane.

“Boeing has always criticised Airbus for interposing technology between the pilot and the plane,” says Nick Cunningham, analyst at research group Agency Partners. “Boeing is more ‘fly by cable’ [or mechanical] than ‘fly by wire’. So it is ironic that the issues with the [Ethiopian Airlines] flight may have been with its control system.”


Chinese aviation officials at the Ethiopian crash site on Tuesday © AP
When China became the first country to ground all 737 Max 8 aircraft, the aviation industry was taken aback. Countries typically wait for the authority that certified the aircraft, in this case the FAA, to take the lead.

Explaining its decision, Feng Zhenglin, director and party secretary of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, told the People’s Daily the move had been made due to “the zero tolerance of the civil aviation industry towards safety hazards”. Chinese airlines operate 96 of the Max 8 planes.

Beijing’s reaction and the ensuing cascade of bans from other countries left the FAA on its own. When the US finally acted it cited fresh evidence from the crash scene as well as newly-refined satellite data for its decision.

Its belated response, however, has amplified the criticism of the FAA’s ability to safeguard the industry amid fears it is understaffed and underfunded. It has been without a permanent head for more than a year.

Critics point to its role as both the promoter of safety and to “encourage and develop civil aeronautics”, raising fears that it could be too close to the industry. Its certification process is also under scrutiny. The MCAS system was certified as a new element, but the 737 Max fleet was classified as a derivative of earlier models, meaning it did not require the same amount of approvals.

The FAA was “slow in taking action”, says Scott Hamilton of consultancy Leeham News. “There is data that indicates similarities between Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines. When the chief executive of Ethiopian says there were flight control issues at 1,000 feet [you act].”


Mourners pray during a visit to the crash site of Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET302 on Thursday in Ejere, Ethiopia © Getty
Boeing has long been one of the most politically well-connected companies in the US, as far back as the late 1950s, when the Democratic senator Henry Jackson was known disparagingly as the “senator from Boeing”.

After Mr Trump won the presidency, the company donated $1m to his inaugural committee fund. But if it hoped that would shield it from censure, they were wrong. Before he even took office, the incoming president castigated Boeing for the high costs of replacing Air Force One, which he said were over $4bn. “Cancel order!” he tweeted in December 2016.

Boeing acted promptly, with Mr Muilenburg travelling to New York to negotiate a deal with Mr Trump, and telling the media afterwards that he had promised the price would be less than $4bn. When an informal deal to sign the contract was announced last year, the cost came in at $3.9bn. “Giving Trump that early win was key for Boeing,” says one aviation industry executive. “Since then they have been very close.”

The company, which employs almost 140,000 people in the US, is one of Washington’s biggest lobbyists, spending $15m in 2018 and $16.7m in 2017 on its lobbying efforts, records show.

“Boeing has always had a very, very strong relationship with the US government,” says Mary Schiavo, a former inspector-general at the transport department. “If anyone [in government] ever did anything the company didn’t like, they would quickly be on the receiving end of a phone call from one member of Congress or another.”

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Boeing Co
Boeing shareholders grab protection amid uncertainty over 737 Max
The attention is now on what investigators can glean from the black boxes. For Boeing, the 737 Max is its most important plane by far. Analysis by Agency Partners estimates that once the 737 Max family is in full production, it will account for about one-third of Boeing’s total revenues in 2020 — and about 40 per cent of earnings.

Safety fears grounded the 787 Dreamliner in 2013. That involved 50 aircraft and is believed to have cost Boeing about $500m. The 737 Max grounding involves 350 planes in service at more than 50 carriers, so it could easily cost more, says Mr Higgins.

John Cox, chief executive of Safety Operating Systems, an aviation safety consultancy who also served as the top safety official for the Air Line Pilots Association, believes Boeing will recover from this crisis.

“Boeing will be impacted in the near term, but overall the aeroplane will re-enter service fly millions and millions of passengers safely,” he says. “There are important differences between the two accidents [in Indonesia and Ethiopia]. Pressure is very high to determine the likely cause. Once that is understood the solutions can be found,” he adds.

Additional reporting by Xinning Liu in Beijing
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

Post by normalicy »

Yeah, I've been noting that a lot of the more recent plane crashes were simply software bugs or as noted, undocumented features. Disturbing and sad for the pilots that are skilled, but unable to do anything about it.
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

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Too much reliance on technology is going to ultimately kill more people.
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

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I disagree. Reliance on technology has made a LOT of things, overall, safer and more reliable. Captain Sully safely landed in the Hudson in great part due to the fact that he turned on the APU that kept the computers running and prevented the plane from stalling.

What's lacking is REGULATION. Tech oversight was already getting relaxed under Obama (he focused more on the banking industry). With Trump it's even worse as he de-regulates everything and cuts budgets.

The fault that is suspected in the earlier crash, and may have caused this one, was supposed to have been fixed a while ago, and Boeing was supposed to updated training and manuals. Pilots have been bitching because they've been complaining of uncommanded elevator issues for a while on this plane. The FAA didn't lean on Boeing. Heck after this crash the FAA was trying to PROTECT Boeing. Our FAA has (up until recently) had the respect of the rest of the world. It's unbelievable that we were that last country to ground that plane. Simply put, the FAA is in bed with Boeing. If the FAA isn't doing their job of regulating and investigating, then the airlines and plane manufacturers are going to do what ALL businesses do without oversight: answer to their share holders. And that usually doesn't encourage safety.
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

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AAAAAAAND...
Federal Aviation Administration managers pushed its engineers to delegate wide responsibility for assessing the safety of the 737 MAX to Boeing itself. But safety engineers familiar with the documents shared details that show the analysis included crucial flaws.
Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

Post by Losbot »

I'm going to disagree with your disagreement. LOL

The more tech we put into planes, cars, etc.... the more likely that people will die when something malfunctions. I think that the newer pilots rely heavily on the tech and forget the basics. I love watching flight videos since getting a private pilot's license is something I want to eventually do one day (I've taken a few classes in the past to get a feel for it) and I'm seeing a lot more reliance on iPads and other tech in the planes. The glass cockpits are cool but when something malfunctions, they seem to forget basics sometimes.

Sully is old school. I would expect him to be cool under pressure and yes, he engaged the APU which allowed the tech to work.....point being it was working.

The other issue I'm referring to is all these planes with fly by wire, which relies heavily on the tech and when that misfires, you've got problems. It's typically something small that manages to take out a larger system. Or human error. Or hackers. Looks at Jeep Chrysler a few years back when the cars could be hacked. LOL
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Re: Crash of Lion Air Boeing 737MAX may have been caused by "undocumented" feature designed to prevent stalls

Post by FlyingPenguin »

Fair enough, although fly by wire is probably here to stay.

What I miss is a flight engineer. They've automated a lot if it but it still puts a burden on the pilots. An extra pair of hands and eyeballs in the cockpit would always help.
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