2nd Prez Debate...

[FlyingPenguin]

Sitting here watching the debate with the laptop in my lap - using this post to make notes. Hope you don't mind. This might be a bit disjointed since I'm typing as I watch.


- I like this format MUCH better than the other debate. Some real debating going on here.

- The Predident is still antsy (not grimacing now though). He really needs to slow down a bit - he's a bit over-eager (my impression anyway) to answer the questions. Like the kid in class who knows all the answers and starts talking before the teacher picks him.

Kerry is coming off a bit more composed but he also is giggling or laughing sometimes while the president talks. I find that disconcerting (kinda like he's thinking "Oh I've got him now").


- The president missed a great opportunity to force Kerry to explain his suggestion at the last debate that we have one on one talks with Korea (which I think Kerry is on crack for even suggesting).

Kerry however is keeping the President more on the defensive than vice-a-versa.

- Kerry is speaking calmly (now about 43 minutes into it) and the president is sounding more whiny and petulant.

- Kerry has consistenly avoided responding directly to questions that ask about how he will SPECIFICALLY fix something (the economy, Iraq, etc). Unfortunately he's getting away with it - he successfully redirects these questions into attacks on the President, and the President falls for it and goes on defensive in his rebuttles instead of demanding that Kerry reveal the details of his plans.

- Kerry is REALLY beginning to annoy me with he big shit-eating grins everytime he thinks he's scored one on the President.

- Kerry seems to be MUCH more comfortable with this format of debate than Bush.

- Now (about an hour in) Bush seems to be getting VERY antsy. He's jumping up to answer questions almost before the questioner finishes speaking. He's also interupted the debate commentator several times. He'd look a lot better if he just took a deep breath and paused before making his replies.

- Bush has said 2 or 3 times now that "we've captured or eliminated 75% of Al Quieda". Not sure where this figure came from. Someone release that recently? Need to research this later.

- THIS IS GREAT: The commentator just chastised BOTH candidates (55 minutes into the program) that NEITHER of them have explained what they will do in the next 4 years to improve the economy, and then gave them each a minute to respond. NEITHER of them responded to the question - they both criticised each others past actions.

- Bush made a joke about his grimaces that went over well. Kerry made a joke about the fact that the only people in the room who would pay more taxes under his administration are him, the president, and the commentator. That got a very good laugh.

- President just got asked about what he'll do about the environment and this is the first time he started getting tongue-tied and acting like he was reading a script. It seems like this response was completly recited from rote memory, while most other questions he genuinely felt involved with. Kerry had a great opportunity to burn the president's ass in his response on this one, and dropped the ball. Instead he went on the defensive needlessly.

- Kerry failed to explain in any detail (yet again) how he's going to close the tax loopholes that encourage companies to outsource their workforce. So on one hand Bush is oblivious to the problem, while Kerry is aware of the problem but Kerry just keeps blowing smoke up our asses instead of explaining how he's going to fix it - just vaguely mentions tax credits. Commentator even pointed this out to Kerry and Kerry was forced to admit his plan won't fix the whole outsourcing problem.

- Bush made an excellent point about the fact that a lot of small businesses are S-Corporations and will be adversely affected by Kerry's tax plan (I'm a small business owner so that got my attention - although I'm not an S-Corp yet, thinking about it though).

- Bush just got a great laugh about lumber businesses. He's looking more comfortable now - better late than never I guess.

- Kerry just gave a VERY awkward answer to a question about the morality of embryonic stem cell research. Bush took good advantage of this gaff and responded with a good answer even if I don't agree with it. Bush is finding his groove and Kerry seems to be losing it at this point.

- Another good laugh for the President when asked who he would pick to replace a Supreme Court justice: "I'm not telling!". Yup he's definately getting into the groove now.

- Bush was heading for losing this debate again until about 1 hour into in but I feel he's taken the reins and running this thing now. Enough possibly to negate his awkwardness in the beginning? Not sure.

- Okay, bottom line this one was a draw in my book. You can't say either man dominated. It was a much better debate than the first one.

As a Bush hater I didn't come out of this one feeling I'd learned anything new about Kerry like I did on the first debate though. Kerry only left me with more questions. The man skillfully avoided going into substantive details on anything important like his plans for the economy or "fixing" Iraq.

Bush still hasn't got a clue why some people aren't happy with him - he's done no wrong in his book, and more of the same is coming. He came off as arrogant (I guess he's entitled - he IS the President after all). The followups on the news are already picking on him for "yelling" during the debate. No doubt Kerry was more composed, but I don't think that really works against Bush all that much - makes him look passionate to some people.

[nexus_7]

um...Kerry sure has LOTS of plans. I wonder what any of them are

Greg

[blade]

I call kerry Chief How. He has all these 'great' plans but rarely says 'how' he'll carry them out. Yet always insististing his ideas are better.

He had one main goal tonight and that was to try hard to get Bush pissed off at the beginning. He succeeded with what he's best at, insults. Bush tried being calm at replying back but was clearly upset. Notice he didn't respond in kind with insults.

he also is giggling or laughing sometimes while the president talks.

He always does that. Acting like he's the high and mighty. He comes across to me as a very deceitful, self-righteous and incitive person.

he successfully redirects these questions into attacks on the President

That's his gameplan and the only thing he does well. I got sick of his insults so I changed the channel in disgust. That was after he yelled and looked right at Bush spewing his usual. That bs shouldn't be allowed. I would have slapped the sarcasm right outa him.

Not a prayer should that 'Chief How' be prez.

[FlyingPenguin]

I agree Kerry is "Chief How". I want to hear more about these plans to fix what's broken, but I don't think there's any plan at all.

Bush I would label as "The Emperor's New Clothes". The man is oblivious to the problems that exist or (in some cases) that he's created. As far as he's concerned nothing is wrong, everything is A-OK, it's only getting better.

I'm more disillusioned with both candidates than ever before.

[blade]

Has has no 'plans'. He makes like his way is better to try and prey on those who want some things better, and on Iraq. But 'How'? Sure Iraq is a cluster but he's saying all this AFTER the fact. It's VERY easy for anyone to say they "would have done things differently and better" now. He's master of the obvious.

I also wish we had at least a third viable candidate. Two has never been enough. Even the afgans have what, 18 candidates I believe. That's a bit too many though. 3-4 would be best imo. That way it'd be less likely for the usual sheep to follow along their parties.

[FlyingPenguin]

Where's Ross Perot when we need him? I would have voted for that SOB last time if he hadn't backed out. I think a lot of people would have.

Ofcourse the problem is not just a viable 3rd candidate... we also need to reform the Electoral College. In it's present state a 3rd party candidate can't possibly be elected - even if he won by a landslide of the popular vote.

[Executioner]

Originally posted by FlyingPenguin
Where's Ross Perot when we need him?

I agree. Before he backed out in 94, he had both parties scared. To bad he backed out because of dirty politics, where they try to find some dirt and over expose it.

As for the debate, I missed the first 45 minutes, but from what I saw, the Pres won hands down in my book.

I did notice one time were the Pres was going to quote the Constitution, but it seems like he forgot the exact phrase of the Constitution, and backed out quickly on that one. Probably the only slip that I saw.

[UberNeuman]

Ross Perot - I would have so voted for him over Clinton, until he backed out and claimed dirty tricks by the GOP...

I mean, come on, the GOP wouldn't play dirty..... would they?

And the same things that are said about Kerry were said about Perot - well, he's over-reaching - he doesn't understand what's going on in a global arena - he can't bring democrats and republicans togther...

[sbp]

http://reformparty.org/PrinciplesIssues/history.html

On October 25, Perot attended a rally at Flemington, New Jersey. The people started showing up at 6 a.m. and by noon filled the fairgrounds. The official police report stated the crowds totaled 25,000, with another 10,000 stalled in their cars on the roads. The press, however, reported only 10,000 showed up. At this event, Perot talked about the "60 Minutes" show that was to air that evening. He revealed why he abandoned this campaign in July and talked about Republican "Dirty Tricks" to distribute altered photos of his daughter and ruin her wedding. The crowd chanted "Family first! Family first!" Five years later, in March 1997, Scott Barnes confessed to the Dallas Morning News that he and a former British Broadcasting Corporation producer named David Taylor masterminded the hoax on Perot. Barnes admitted he lied under oath to investigators. He and Taylor thought the plan would disgrace the Bush campaign. But it backfired when Perot ended his campaign. Barnes told the paper that he had become a born-again Christian and needed to clear his conscience.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/03-97/03-29-97/a03wn022.htm {Associated Press}

A private investigator who supported Ross Perot in the 1992 presidential campaign says he made up charges that Republicans were trying to smear the Texas billionaire, charges that eventually led Perot to drop out.

"It was a lie," Scott Barnes said in yesterday's Dallas Morning News. "We orchestrated the whole thing."

Mr. Barnes said he and a former producer for the British Broadcasting Corp., David Taylor, convinced Mr. Perot that his phones were being tapped, and that Republicans had photos of one of his daughters in a compromising position and intended to disrupt her wedding.

Mr. Barnes, who did occasional work for Mr. Perot, said he and Mr. Taylor thought a dirty tricks campaign purportedly linked to the GOP would cause George Bush to lose his presidency.

But the plan backfired, Mr. Barnes said, because Mr. Perot was drawn in, "not realizing the whole thing was a conspiracy, a hoax."

Mr. Perot dropped his candidacy in 1992, accusing Republicans of dirty tricks. The FBI investigated and found no evidence to support the allegations.

Mr. Perot later got back into the 1992 race, but many of his supporters by then had left to back President Bush's re-election or Bill Clinton.

Mr. Barnes now says he lied under oath to congressional committees about the affair. He told the newspaper he needed to clear his conscience because he had become a born-again Christian.

Perot spokesman Russ Varney called Mr. Barnes a "class 'A' hustler" whose latest statement was another attempt to gain media attention.

Mr. Taylor no longer works for the BBC, according to the network's Washington bureau, and was unavailable for comment.

In one scheme, Mr. Barnes claimed he told Mr. Perot that Jim Oberwetter, the Texas chairman of the Bush-Dan Quayle campaign, knew of the tricks. Mr. Oberwetter was eventually investigated by the FBI, which sent undercover agents to offer him information supposedly obtained by a wiretap. He refused the offer.

"He clearly attempted to do me grave damage," Mr. Oberwetter said of Mr. Barnes.

[UberNeuman]

Interesting links - has Perot ever denounced or commented on Scott Barnes? Other than Barnes’ “claim” years after the fact, I do not see anything that backs up his allegations