If you don't agree with FP, then I suggest you may be gullible (the proper non-liberterian spelling).
FP's point is simple. Take a moment and see if your brain can absorb it. It is simple - our interests in controlling the stability of oil and other resource rich countries is shaping our foreign policy. That includes whatever the true aims of the Bush administration are in pursuing this conflict.
It is, as FP suggests, hypocrisy to claim that this war is about liberating the poor downtrodden Iraqi people or because there is a clear and present danger that Saddam was about to use his WMD. Both of those are pretexts for what is going on here.
FP correctly points out that we do not routinely make war on countries that treat their citizens like crap. In fact, we frequently support such countries when we feel it is in our interest to do so.
As far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, I am mystified as to why the Iraqi weapons program suddenly became an imminent threat to the world. Israel, who bombed the hell out of an Iraqi reactor complex in the early 80's (when a lot of you had not yet been toilet trained) does not tolerate direct threats to its existence. Its intelligence service, the Mossad, does not fool around. If the danger was so great, where were the Israelis? What about the rest of the world - why did most countries believe that continued diplomatic efforts were worth it? Beyond that, it seems that North Korea is just as dangerous as Iraq, but we choose to go to war in Iraq. Guess which part of the world has more oil?
For the life of me, I do not understand the amount of UNTHINKING that characterizes dialogue about the war on this board. I find it almost unbelievable that FP's post, which comes from a thoughtful middle of the road guy, triggers nothing but a bunch of semi-literate knee-jerk defensive responses.
Why don't you at least read his post and try to understand it before you speak.
Well I'll probably get flamed, but this is the way I see it...
No we dont....atleast not latelly or Publicaly that is.FP correctly points out that we do not routinely make war on countries that treat their citizens like crap. In fact, we frequently support such countries when we feel it is in our interest to do so.
We dont go in to other places cause WE ARE ALREADY THERE! We have so many peace keeping forces deployed ALL over the world already protecting the places we have Liberated...maybe you all forgot about that stuff.
Remember reality befor you try to shove you jaded reality as the truth.
I might not be as old as many of you (nothing insulting intended) but I enjoy history and read alot as well as watch a bunch of documentarys....and some of your guys "realities" are pretty out there in terms of the truth.
Greg
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TheSovereign
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its nice to see that lmaninthedark can only attack my spelling
secondary concerns over this war are futile for u to even attempt to argue
your opinion means less than nothing to the man who controls this war
this war is about a threat. its not about iraqi's. its not about oil.
its about islam. noticing we are now accusing syria and iran?
the war isnt against iraq which your small brain cant comprehend
its about christians vs muslims plain and simple
remember bush is a born again christian it is his duty to protect other christians and the jews
remember according to the bible once israel is reformed it stays untill (OMG i misspelled until omg where is lmaninthedark?) the end days
i truly believe religion is a big factor in all of this
and im all for extermination of the islamic faith
after all if your faith allows you to cause violence to me.....well im gonna have to get rid of ya first arent i?
these are my delusions i hope they are true
secondary concerns over this war are futile for u to even attempt to argue
your opinion means less than nothing to the man who controls this war
this war is about a threat. its not about iraqi's. its not about oil.
its about islam. noticing we are now accusing syria and iran?
the war isnt against iraq which your small brain cant comprehend
its about christians vs muslims plain and simple
remember bush is a born again christian it is his duty to protect other christians and the jews
remember according to the bible once israel is reformed it stays untill (OMG i misspelled until omg where is lmaninthedark?) the end days
i truly believe religion is a big factor in all of this
and im all for extermination of the islamic faith
after all if your faith allows you to cause violence to me.....well im gonna have to get rid of ya first arent i?
these are my delusions i hope they are true
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This is a lot more complicated than just the world economy of oil, ruthless dictatorship/genocide/development of WMD, etc.
Saddam plays (what the coalition believes) a central role in terrorism. He has the money, power, bottomless pit of energy, hiding places, blind followers, and the shroud of religion that invokes trust in others that want to see the end of "Zionism" and Judaism. And because he (used to have) the fourth largest armed forces in the world, he has a bit of ego...and thirst.
He knows (now) that he can't walk into Kuwait as if he were Adolf on steroids. And Churchill is no longer alive to allow him get away with it with nary a warning.
Achieving World Domination (TM) is a bitch nowadays.
So after he fails miserably, he cheats: oil for food? Please, many more palaces were built while the people of Iraq starved.
Families of Palestinian suicide bombers were rewarded by Iraq. A few months ago saw the brutal assassination of one of the most-wanted terrorists in history, who just so happened to be living in Iraq without Saddam's knowledge (yeah, right...). Troops found a base today where they believe the ricin found in London was originally manufactured. Suspected al-qaeda operatives have been reported to have engaged coalition forces over the last few days.
Iraq is central to terrorism. Knock them out of the picture, and there are fewer places terrorists can go for sanctuary, supplies, weapons, information, etc.
Oh, but this isn't all...this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many other reasons for this war. For example: the ground war started a day earlier than the air campaign...a stark contrast to how Gulf War EP1 was carried out. Why, you ask? Why, to test our war planning and execution based upon a specific set of circumstances, of course. Technology has grown by leaps and bounds since '91...gotta make sure GPS won't wipe out civilians or friendlies. We found out the other day about covert operations within Baghdad, targeting high-ranking officials with high-powered rifles and well-placed explosives...and info where the big dudes are sleeping...we haven't been able to (legally) do this since the Carter administration, gotta make sure we're doing it right.
Plus, other nearby countries fear Saddam, and yet they publicly support him. Double-edged sword, can't live with Iraq, can't live without them. And like the relationship between a city mayor and a construction company, there is a lot of backdoor dealings and kick-backs.
Anybody ever wonder why EVERY Arab country opposed striking Iraq? Did you ever consider that they had their own plans? Think about it...they use Saddam until they no longer need him, and they later get rid of him with no complaints from the west. But then they control how it's run later, under their terms, and then they price oil accordingly. They don't want us to do to Iraq what we did to Iran decades ago, cuz that would cut into their bottom line.
Saddam likes Kim Jong-Il, they're buddies. So Kim goes and drops out of his nuclear agreements and restarts his reactor, trying to take our attention away from Iraq. Didn't work well, tho'...we barely gave him the time of day.
There are many reasons for this war. Too many people watch condensed news and come to quick-trigger conclusions of "why" our boys are there. But this world, while small when viewed from the Alpha space station, is actually quite large, containing 6 billion people...with a few select that run the place.
And some of them are very, very bad people.
Saddam plays (what the coalition believes) a central role in terrorism. He has the money, power, bottomless pit of energy, hiding places, blind followers, and the shroud of religion that invokes trust in others that want to see the end of "Zionism" and Judaism. And because he (used to have) the fourth largest armed forces in the world, he has a bit of ego...and thirst.
He knows (now) that he can't walk into Kuwait as if he were Adolf on steroids. And Churchill is no longer alive to allow him get away with it with nary a warning.
Achieving World Domination (TM) is a bitch nowadays.
So after he fails miserably, he cheats: oil for food? Please, many more palaces were built while the people of Iraq starved.
Families of Palestinian suicide bombers were rewarded by Iraq. A few months ago saw the brutal assassination of one of the most-wanted terrorists in history, who just so happened to be living in Iraq without Saddam's knowledge (yeah, right...). Troops found a base today where they believe the ricin found in London was originally manufactured. Suspected al-qaeda operatives have been reported to have engaged coalition forces over the last few days.
Iraq is central to terrorism. Knock them out of the picture, and there are fewer places terrorists can go for sanctuary, supplies, weapons, information, etc.
Oh, but this isn't all...this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many other reasons for this war. For example: the ground war started a day earlier than the air campaign...a stark contrast to how Gulf War EP1 was carried out. Why, you ask? Why, to test our war planning and execution based upon a specific set of circumstances, of course. Technology has grown by leaps and bounds since '91...gotta make sure GPS won't wipe out civilians or friendlies. We found out the other day about covert operations within Baghdad, targeting high-ranking officials with high-powered rifles and well-placed explosives...and info where the big dudes are sleeping...we haven't been able to (legally) do this since the Carter administration, gotta make sure we're doing it right.
Plus, other nearby countries fear Saddam, and yet they publicly support him. Double-edged sword, can't live with Iraq, can't live without them. And like the relationship between a city mayor and a construction company, there is a lot of backdoor dealings and kick-backs.
Anybody ever wonder why EVERY Arab country opposed striking Iraq? Did you ever consider that they had their own plans? Think about it...they use Saddam until they no longer need him, and they later get rid of him with no complaints from the west. But then they control how it's run later, under their terms, and then they price oil accordingly. They don't want us to do to Iraq what we did to Iran decades ago, cuz that would cut into their bottom line.
Saddam likes Kim Jong-Il, they're buddies. So Kim goes and drops out of his nuclear agreements and restarts his reactor, trying to take our attention away from Iraq. Didn't work well, tho'...we barely gave him the time of day.
There are many reasons for this war. Too many people watch condensed news and come to quick-trigger conclusions of "why" our boys are there. But this world, while small when viewed from the Alpha space station, is actually quite large, containing 6 billion people...with a few select that run the place.
And some of them are very, very bad people.
Iraq has for the most part been out of the (legal) oil market for 12 years, why is there a crisis to stabilize the market now? How much oil in Somalia? Bosnia? It's kind of funny to think that the whole reason Iraq attacked Kuwait was oil. The national debt Iraq was carrying after the war with Iran was enormous. If they cant make ends meet with thier own national resources then how much of a destabilizing effect can they have on the international market. Go ask your neighborhood protester and watch them scramble for an answer.
After 9/11 we realized how bad we were hated and the lengths these people would go to in order to hurt the USA as a nation. An al-Quadia/Iraq link was made but seemed to be dismissed by the international community. With the increased focus on intellegence and new leads provided by unraveling al-Quedia I would bet that yet unrevealed info (possibly aquired by means which would be considered not fit for public knowlege) came to light about plans to deliver Iraqi chemical/biological weapons on American soil through international terror networks. Notice how Afganistan was wrapped up and within weeks the attention shifted to Iraq? Prevention of another disaster is the reason. Of course the international community for the most part wouldn't support the disoultion of a government, actions and inactions of the U.N. had shown that. Just before the war started in earnest Frontline reran a series of episodes entitled "Spying on Saddam" which contained interviews with the former UN inspectors and the now defected chief scientist fromt the Iraqi nuclear program. The things said in these interviews was shocking and made it blatantly obvious how little Iraq cared to comply with international resoultions. I honestly dont know how the U.N. could have digested this information and not acted. They most likely never would react baring another international attack by Iraq. As the weapons inspectors resumed their duties in recent months the patterns of deception and uncooperation were falling into place just as they had in the mid 90's. America is the focus of their anger so we will bear the brunt of their actions. Germany, france, China and Russia don't care to anger the arab world, then they would open themselves up to everything that we are faced with now so the USA and a few dedicated allies go it alone.
Do you honestly think that if North Korea invaded South Korea that the world would sit back and watch? "You have no oil South Korea, sorry!" No, they would be dealt with. The main difference would be that the government would be dissasembled so as not to have to deal with them again. North Korea is pretty quiet for the most part and have not really commited any violent act of agression against another nation so they stay out of the limelight.
After 9/11 we realized how bad we were hated and the lengths these people would go to in order to hurt the USA as a nation. An al-Quadia/Iraq link was made but seemed to be dismissed by the international community. With the increased focus on intellegence and new leads provided by unraveling al-Quedia I would bet that yet unrevealed info (possibly aquired by means which would be considered not fit for public knowlege) came to light about plans to deliver Iraqi chemical/biological weapons on American soil through international terror networks. Notice how Afganistan was wrapped up and within weeks the attention shifted to Iraq? Prevention of another disaster is the reason. Of course the international community for the most part wouldn't support the disoultion of a government, actions and inactions of the U.N. had shown that. Just before the war started in earnest Frontline reran a series of episodes entitled "Spying on Saddam" which contained interviews with the former UN inspectors and the now defected chief scientist fromt the Iraqi nuclear program. The things said in these interviews was shocking and made it blatantly obvious how little Iraq cared to comply with international resoultions. I honestly dont know how the U.N. could have digested this information and not acted. They most likely never would react baring another international attack by Iraq. As the weapons inspectors resumed their duties in recent months the patterns of deception and uncooperation were falling into place just as they had in the mid 90's. America is the focus of their anger so we will bear the brunt of their actions. Germany, france, China and Russia don't care to anger the arab world, then they would open themselves up to everything that we are faced with now so the USA and a few dedicated allies go it alone.
Do you honestly think that if North Korea invaded South Korea that the world would sit back and watch? "You have no oil South Korea, sorry!" No, they would be dealt with. The main difference would be that the government would be dissasembled so as not to have to deal with them again. North Korea is pretty quiet for the most part and have not really commited any violent act of agression against another nation so they stay out of the limelight.
-there is no replacement for displacement-
Off we go....
Insofar as the support of repressive governments is concerned...
and
Please list the countries we have "liberated" since 1975. I don't even know what you mean unless you are speaking of Kuwait and Afghanistan. As far as Afghanistan is concerned, we went there because that is where Al Qaeda had their training bases and facilities (not Iraq).
Countries we cozy up to that have serious issues with basic freedoms like freedom of the press, due process of law, etc. include Egypt, Pakistan, Colombia, Saudi Arabia, and others. Our history on this point in South America is nothing to be particularly proud of. If it is relevant to go back that far, we can look to the Shah of Iran, who was our big buddy and was a brutally repressive dictator.
Don't get me wrong here, I think the US and our form of government is the best thing to happen to the world in the last 200 years. I just don't think anybody should be unrealistic about what we are and what we do. It is naive to think you can play international power politics and claim to be pure as the driven snow....
Can I have all the federal taxes I ever paid back? I live in the United States that has religious freedom and whose constitution forbids religious wars.
oops... gotta go to work. Slug and Shaggy, thanks for thoughtful responses...
Insofar as the support of repressive governments is concerned...
No we dont....atleast not latelly or Publicaly that is.
and
We dont go in to other places cause WE ARE ALREADY THERE! We have so many peace keeping forces deployed ALL over the world already protecting the places we have Liberated
Please list the countries we have "liberated" since 1975. I don't even know what you mean unless you are speaking of Kuwait and Afghanistan. As far as Afghanistan is concerned, we went there because that is where Al Qaeda had their training bases and facilities (not Iraq).
Countries we cozy up to that have serious issues with basic freedoms like freedom of the press, due process of law, etc. include Egypt, Pakistan, Colombia, Saudi Arabia, and others. Our history on this point in South America is nothing to be particularly proud of. If it is relevant to go back that far, we can look to the Shah of Iran, who was our big buddy and was a brutally repressive dictator.
Don't get me wrong here, I think the US and our form of government is the best thing to happen to the world in the last 200 years. I just don't think anybody should be unrealistic about what we are and what we do. It is naive to think you can play international power politics and claim to be pure as the driven snow....
the war isnt against iraq which your small brain cant comprehend... its about christians vs muslims plain and simple remember bush is a born again christian it is his duty....
Can I have all the federal taxes I ever paid back? I live in the United States that has religious freedom and whose constitution forbids religious wars.
oops... gotta go to work. Slug and Shaggy, thanks for thoughtful responses...
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smb
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I don't think it's about oil. We have enough of our own to last a long time.
I think this was a pre-emptive strike. As previously mentioned, since 911, the landscape has changed.
I don' think we can sit around and wait for another strike against us, other that Al-Quaida, who hates us most ? Iraq. They would be the next choice to strike at the U.S.
I think this was a pre-emptive strike. As previously mentioned, since 911, the landscape has changed.
I don' think we can sit around and wait for another strike against us, other that Al-Quaida, who hates us most ? Iraq. They would be the next choice to strike at the U.S.
Sorry, i dont wanna come off flaming anyone becusae I believe this board is a great place, and i believe FP and Lmandrakes posts were well thought out and also what they believe in and american is all about being able to say what you wanna say and believe what you wanna belive...
But where was the oil in vietnam?
Seen any oil in korea?
This war is about finishing things that should have been done 13 yrs ago, also it is about terror, and i think you will see stuff happen in africa soon, that place is full of terrorist and training facilitys.
I dont think it will be as visable (covert ops) because of the legalness, but I beleive Bush is just living up to his promise of not tolerating terrorists or the countrys who harbor them, Iraq was just the logical second stop on the map.
But where was the oil in vietnam?
Seen any oil in korea?
This war is about finishing things that should have been done 13 yrs ago, also it is about terror, and i think you will see stuff happen in africa soon, that place is full of terrorist and training facilitys.
I dont think it will be as visable (covert ops) because of the legalness, but I beleive Bush is just living up to his promise of not tolerating terrorists or the countrys who harbor them, Iraq was just the logical second stop on the map.
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TheSovereign
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sorry maninthedark u dont seem to understand the constitution
its freedom of religion as long as your religion doesnt hurt anyone
oops they broke that rule. i hope they are all exterminated
its freedom of religion as long as your religion doesnt hurt anyone
oops they broke that rule. i hope they are all exterminated
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I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree".
To me, saying this is mostly "about oil" is like saying our president is a liar. He isn't the best with getting his point across, but I do trust him.
You guys who say it's about oil, are you pro-democrat?
I know it is about the threat they are to us because of the WMD's and stopping the many many atrocities that regime has continually done, along with being associated with bin laden and company and the threat to su that comes with that association.
To me, saying this is mostly "about oil" is like saying our president is a liar. He isn't the best with getting his point across, but I do trust him.
You guys who say it's about oil, are you pro-democrat?
I know it is about the threat they are to us because of the WMD's and stopping the many many atrocities that regime has continually done, along with being associated with bin laden and company and the threat to su that comes with that association.
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I don't think it is a "grab" for oil, or even neccessarily to make sure that Iraq's oil is in the hands of a friendly government. I disagree absolutely with the fuzzy headed idiot protesters who say this war is the work of the giant oil companies. However, I do think that oil in the region makes us more interested than we would be if it were, for example, Myanmar (formerly Burma). Myanmar, BTW, has a brutally repressive regime that treats its people like crap. We could care less.
This is why I want to puke every time I hear about operation "Iraqi Freedom." Freedom for Iraqis has almost nothing to do with it. For my money, they might as well have called it operation "Relentless Cookout" or something like the old days in Nam like "Dewey Canyon."
If anybody were to ask me what Bush's real agenda is here, I would have to profess ignorance. I really don't know. While Iraq did and does support palestinian terrorists - as do practically all the arab states, even though nobody wants the palestinians - I think that it is a huge stretch to link Hussein and Al Qaeda. Bin Laden loathes Hussein and refers to him as an infidel. Al Qaeda chose Afghanistan for a reason. Also, it seems that most of the Al Qaeda we have tracked down have been arrested in Pakistan. I don't know who the terrorist found in Iraq was, or who "arrested" him, but if that makes Iraq a haven for terrorists, its seems Pakistan has Iraq beat on that score.
One thing is for sure, one outcome of this war is going to be a huge new supply of terrorists from other arab states, including Egypt
But everybody is entitled to their opinion and can believe what they want. I personally feel that the war is a mistake, but now that we are in it, I would not publicly protest beyond expressing the thoughts that I have here. Instead, I think it more appropriate to get on with the job, get in and get out.
This is why I want to puke every time I hear about operation "Iraqi Freedom." Freedom for Iraqis has almost nothing to do with it. For my money, they might as well have called it operation "Relentless Cookout" or something like the old days in Nam like "Dewey Canyon."
If anybody were to ask me what Bush's real agenda is here, I would have to profess ignorance. I really don't know. While Iraq did and does support palestinian terrorists - as do practically all the arab states, even though nobody wants the palestinians - I think that it is a huge stretch to link Hussein and Al Qaeda. Bin Laden loathes Hussein and refers to him as an infidel. Al Qaeda chose Afghanistan for a reason. Also, it seems that most of the Al Qaeda we have tracked down have been arrested in Pakistan. I don't know who the terrorist found in Iraq was, or who "arrested" him, but if that makes Iraq a haven for terrorists, its seems Pakistan has Iraq beat on that score.
One thing is for sure, one outcome of this war is going to be a huge new supply of terrorists from other arab states, including Egypt
But everybody is entitled to their opinion and can believe what they want. I personally feel that the war is a mistake, but now that we are in it, I would not publicly protest beyond expressing the thoughts that I have here. Instead, I think it more appropriate to get on with the job, get in and get out.
If you are referring to my earlier post, Abu Nidal was never "arrested". He simply gained several pounds of weight within a few seconds...they riddled his body with bullets.I don't know who the terrorist found in Iraq was, or who "arrested" him
He was the guy behind Pan Am flight 103, and according to other reports, this Palestinian terrorist wanted Arafat dead. Some reports claim Saddam ordered his execution because he refused to train al-qa'eda fighters. Of course, Iraq's "official cause" of death is suicide...